Census Complaints, as Per a Video by Testify, Answers, Comparing His View with My Previous One

Nativity Narrative Revisited · Census Complaints, as Per a Video by Testify, Answers, Comparing His View with My Previous One

If you want to check Erik Manning's answer, it's on the video

Did Luke Botch the Census?
Testify | 22 Dec. 2025
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6fLnijaBWQ

Now, I've halted it to copy the list of complaints, to which I will respond.

1) There's a 10 year* gap between the timelines of Matthew and Luke;**
2) There was no census during the time of Jesus' birth;
3) Quirinius was not in charge of any earlier census;
4) Rome would have never conducted a census under a client king;
5) Nobody would have travalled to their 1000-year ancestral home to register;
6) Luke was just making stuff up to have Jesus born in Bethlehem to fulfill the Micheas 5:2 prophecy.***

To 1 and 6, I say, wrong. I'll return to why on 1, about the census creating the gap, and as to 6, Matthew also presupposed Jesus was born in Bethlehem, since the Holy Innocents only makes sense in that setting.

To 2 and 5, I give a modification. There was no direct tax census at the time recalled outside the Gospel, and a provincial under Rome typically wouldn't have returned to a 1000-year ancestral home to register.

To 3, I claim agnosticism. Quirinius was in Syria part time doing the functions of a governor, while the governor in title was Saturninus. Whether the earlier census was under him or Galilee had a separate set of Roman administrators, I don't know. St. Luke says the timing was the same.

To 4, I agree. The US Internal Revenue Service will not conduct a census on Puerto Rico, on Guam or in the Philippines. That was kind of the point of why Joseph chose to go to Bethlehem. Under Herod there was no Roman census. There may very well have been a census for the temple tax. Herod may very well have posed as a patriot, flirting with Essenians (whom Damien Mackey considers to have been Herodians). To me, Luke 2:5 strongly suggests St. Joseph enrolled with the Temple to pay temple tax, as a good Hebrew patriot.

Back to 5. A Roman official certainly would have preferred people to enroll in their own city. This was not automatically the city where they were residing for the moment. A citizen of Rome and of Pompeii would not have paid taxes at this point in the first place, but whatever official duties he could have that were not tied to being in Rome, he could only fulfill by being in Pompeii. While Provincials weren't citizens, Rome was used from its own backyard to citizens being so of a city state.

So, if the Roman official knew that there was no census going on in Judaea, why did he allow Joseph to leave with his fiancée?

There was another Bethlehem, and that one was in Galilee. The Roman official may have known that and thought that was the Bethlehem that Joseph meant.

Or, even supposing he knew Joseph was going to Judaea, he can have been unaware of Judaea being a vassal kingdom rather than a province. After, all, while Galilee was in a province, Herod was recognised as king there too. I'm presuming St. Joseph was only up with a centurion, not with a governor.

So, when Quirinius was later on in charge, personally being named as governor, not just stepping in, in AD 6, and a census in Judaea was held and caused a rebellion, that census was remembered, while the one in Galilee, which had sparked no rebellion, was not. And that's not the census that St. Luke is talking about. Here. (Erik Manning thinks he's briefly referencing it, with "πρώτη" translated as "before the one"). Either way, he does mention the rebellion, in Acts (thank's Erik! Also for Tacitus Annal's 3.48 confirming Quirinius had a governor like role before actually being governor.)

Now, I'll admit, I may have constructed a fake solution, because the solution of Erik Manning had already been presented to me, but as I recall, without the support in Josephus.

The solution of Erik Manning is, the census was first a census of loyalty, only later involved taxation, and then sparked a revolt. That was also the solution of a FB acquaintance known sometimes as "de Aulia" ... but the latter didn't mention this, quoting from Manning's video:

Therefore it is very [4:29] possible that the registration began in [4:32] 6 BC and there was actually a oil uh a [4:35] loyalty a oath of loyalty to Caesar uh [4:39] during this time. Josephus notes this in [4:42] antiquities, right? [ref. on screen to Ant. 17.2.4]

Now, that FB friend never gave the reference to Antiquities 17.2.4, which is a longish sub chapter or paragraph, but the reference would be here:

For there was a certain sect of men that were Jews, who valued themselves highly upon the exact skill they had in the law of their fathers, and made men believe they were highly favoured by God, by whom this set of women were inveagled. These are those that are called the sect of the Pharisees: who were in a capacity of greatly opposing Kings. A cunning sect they were; and soon elevated to a pitch of open fighting, and doing mischief. Accordingly when all the people of the Jews gave assurance of their good will to Cæsar, and to the King’s government; these very men did not swear: being above six thousand. (2)

So, the census when Jesus was born, in Judaea, would have involved "goodwill to Caear [Augustus] and to the King's [Herod's] goverment", which sounds like a less heavy strain on the absolute claims of God than loyalty to Caesar. At this census, Jews were not yet saying "we have no King but Caesar" ...

Again, as with taxes, the options may have been less patriotic in Galilee. So, Joseph could have still had a patriotic and law abiding motivation for preferring the census in Judaea, even if it wasn't for the temple tax.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Nanterre UL
St. Onesimus
16.II.2026

Romae beati Onesimi, de quo sanctus Paulus Apostolus ad Philemonem scribit; quem etiam, post sanctum Timotheum, Ephesiorum Episcopum ordinavit, praedicationisque verbum illi commisit. Ipse autem Onesimus, vinctus Romam perductus ac pro fide Christi lapidatus, primo ibidem sepultus fuit; inde ad locum ubi Episcopus fuerat ordinatus, corpus ejus delatum est.

* Copyist mistake number 1: "10 year" for "10-year"
** Copyist mistake number 2: "the timelines of Matthew and Luke" for "Matthew and Luke's timelines"
*** Copyist mistake number 3: "the Micheas 5:2 prophecy" for "the Micah 5:2 prophecy"

Did Josephus Believe Hercules Was Historic?

Let's check Antiquities.

Here is about Hercules as a false god:

BOOK VIII. Containing The Interval Of One Hundred And Sixty-Three Years.—From The Death Of David To The Death Of Ahab.
CHAPTER 5. How Solomon Built Himself A Royal Palace, Very Costly And Splendid; And How He Solved The Riddles Which Were Sent Him By Hiram.
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/2848/2848-h/2848-h.htm#link82HCH0005

3. When Solomon had completed all this in twenty years' time, because Hiram king of Tyre had contributed a great deal of gold, and more silver to these buildings, as also cedar wood and pine wood, he also rewarded Hiram with rich presents; corn he sent him also year by year, and wine and oil, which were the principal things that he stood in need of, because he inhabited an island, as we have already said. And besides these, he granted him certain cities of Galilee, twenty in number, that lay not far from Tyre; which, when Hiram went to, and viewed, and did not like the gift, he sent word to Solomon that he did not want such cities as they were; and after that time these cities were called the land of Cabul; which name, if it be interpreted according to the language of the Phoenicians, denotes what does not please. Moreover, the king of Tyre sent sophisms and enigmatical sayings to Solomon, and desired he would solve them, and free them from the ambiguity that was in them. Now so sagacious and understanding was Solomon, that none of these problems were too hard for him; but he conquered them all by his reasonings, and discovered their hidden meaning, and brought it to light. Menander also, one who translated the Tyrian archives out of the dialect of the Phoenicians into the Greek language, makes mention of these two kings, where he says thus: "When Abibalus was dead, his son Hiram received the kingdom from him, who, when he had lived fifty-three years, reigned thirty-four. He raised a bank in the large place, and dedicated the golden pillar which is in Jupiter's temple. He also went and cut down materials of timber out of the mountain called Libanus, for the roof of temples; and when he had pulled down the ancient temples, he both built the temple of Hercules and that of Astarte; and he first set up the temple of Hercules in the month Peritius; he also made an expedition against the Euchii, or Titii, who did not pay their tribute, and when he had subdued them to himself he returned. Under this king there was Abdemon, a very youth in age, who always conquered the difficult problems which Solomon, king of Jerusalem, commanded him to explain. Dius also makes mention of him, where he says thus: 'When Abibalus was dead, his son Hiram reigned. He raised the eastern parts of the city higher, and made the city itself larger. He also joined the temple of Jupiter, which before stood by itself, to the city, by raising a bank in the middle between them; and he adorned it with donations of gold. Moreover, he went up to Mount Libanus, and cut down materials of wood for the building of the temples.' He says also, that Solomon, who was then king of Jerusalem, sent riddles to Hiram, and desired to receive the like from him, but that he who could not solve them should pay money to them that did solve them, and that Hiram accepted the conditions; and when he was not able to solve the riddles proposed by Solomon, he paid a great deal of money for his fine; but that he afterward did solve the proposed riddles by means of Abdemon, a man of Tyre; and that Hiram proposed other riddles, which, when Solomon could not solve, he paid back a great deal of money to Hiram." This it is which Dius wrote.

Josephus is clearly buying into the narrative that Hercules in Phœnician is Baal.

But what about Hercules as a real man? Yes:

BOOK I. Containing The Interval Of Three Thousand Eight Hundred And Thirty-Three Years. — From The Creation To The Death Of Isaac.
CHAPTER 15. How The Nation Of The Troglodytes Were Derived From Abraham By Keturah.
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/2848/2848-h/2848-h.htm#link2HCH0015

Abraham after this married Keturah, by whom six sons were born to him, men of courage, and of sagacious minds: Zambran, and Jazar, and Madan, and Madian, and Josabak, and Sous. Now the sons of Sous were Sabathan and Dadan. The sons of Dadan were Latusim, and Assur, and Luom. The sons of Madian were Ephas, and Ophren, and Anoch, and Ebidas, and Eldas. Now, for all these sons and grandsons, Abraham contrived to settle them in colonies; and they took possession of Troglodytis, and the country of Arabia the Happy, as far as it reaches to the Red Sea. It is related of this Ophren, that he made war against Libya, and took it, and that his grandchildren, when they inhabited it, called it [from his name] Africa. And indeed Alexander Polyhistor gives his attestation to what I here say; who speaks thus: "Cleodemus the prophet, who was also called Malchus, who wrote a History of the Jews, in agreement with the History of Moses, their legislator, relates, that there were many sons born to Abraham by Keturah: nay, he names three of them, Apher, and Surim, and Japhran. That from Surim was the land of Assyria denominated; and that from the other two [Apher and Japbran] the country of Africa took its name, because these men were auxiliaries to Hercules, when he fought against Libya and Antaeus; and that Hercules married Aphra's daughter, and of her he begat a son, Diodorus; and that Sophon was his son, from whom that barbarous people called Sophacians were denominated."

So, Madian's [Midian's] son Ophren was a contemoporary of Hercules.

That places Hercules far earlier than a generation or two before the Trojan war.

I think this would have to be a different person from the one in the tomb of Tiryns, arguably at the origin of a more Greek worship of Hercules. And then, the two got confused.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Paris
II L.D. after Christmas
4.I.2026