samedi 12 avril 2014

From Mark Shea to Joseph Atwill

1) From Mark Shea to Joseph Atwill, 2) Twelve Pieces of a Doherty Puzzle (it's Too Early to Dismiss Historicity), 3) What about Randel Helms?, 4) It did NOT take two more years until the next TF challenge ...

Let us take Mark Shea first, and let me say that I totally agree on the principle outlined in the passage I put in bold letters:

Conspiracies do happen. The murder of Caesar was a conspiracy. So was the murder of Jesus. And Lincoln. The Holocaust was a conspiracy. 9/11 was a conspiracy–but not one involving Bush or Mossad. So, for a little while, was Watergate.

But here’s the thing: we know all about them. Why? Because conspiracies to commit big crimes are inherently unstable. They unravel and the whole thing gets exposed. Bad people are mainly about Looking Out for Numero Uno. When things go sour, they run to their lawyers, head for the border or get caught in complicated lies. What we never see is massive conspiracies which, of necessity, have to involve hundreds or even thousands of co-conspirators, lasting for years and years and years with nobody being the wiser.

The sort of person who insists Jesus never existed is somebody who simply does not know what they are talking about, like believers in moon landing hoaxes, or the NASA plot to cover up geocentrism, or Holocaust Deniers.

WELL, as for Moon Landing Hoax going sour, we have all the Moontruthers. Footages of how the footage with Armstrong juming on a Moon with six times less graviation (or similar footage) was shot - or the guy who was summoning Armstrong to admit he was a liar.

If Moon Landing was a hoax, it went sour.

We do not know if the man who told Armstrong that was subsequently shut up. For instance in a padded cell. But that is very clearly what conspirators would have some likelihood to want to do. I do not know if they have the assurance to do that.

Spreading out hysteria about conspiracy theorists are so much less risky moves.

Or NASA efforts to cover up Geocentrism ... well, I asked them for information which would possibly prove Geocentrism (or my version of it) wrong, they did not give it. They have however issued a few parodies. Like the Moon Landing Sketch linked to in Mark Shea's article. They have also handed out a few assurances about Biblical Geocentrism being absolutely wrong. But which happen to lack proof. At least of the kind I require.

So, if it is a conspiracy (I do not say it is except in the sense that people in power with convictions in power will try to marginalise challenges to such convictions pretty routinely, and that if they prefer doing so by solid evidence, such is perhaps not available against Geocentrism), it has also in a way blown up in their face.

If prisoners conspired to get former gaolors punished for worse crimes than actually comitted and to get a good piece of land, both Intifada's and Faurisson could be said to be that conspiracy blowing up in their faces. And if 9/11 involved Bush and Mossad, some pieces of evidence might be blowing up in their faces too. Like Jews being unhurt, because absent for their religious holiday that day. Or like architects disputing a hit on the top would topple a tower like that.

There have been clearly conspirational attempts to cover up that I am "wrong" about "these conspiracy theories", as if either I were a clearly important person who is not allowed to be wrong (but still wrong on these items according to those who consider me so), or, a theory which would give my person less importance, as if the fact of my being wrong in this particular way were a kind of threat to the right answer remaining right in the eyes of the many who are no doubt better informed than I (in this assessment of my takes as mistakes).

I consider such a fact a sign of my takes or some of them being at least akin to a conspiracy blowing up in the faces of conspirators.

So, assuming Christianity were once a conspiracy by the Caesars against the people ... did it go sour? Did it blow up in their face?

Christianity was in fact not treated as such a thing in Antiquity. It was treated only as what clearly (and especially on Joseph Atwill's theory, but even without it) it was not: a conspiracy against Caesar, against public order, against peace. Something which is more likely to be accuate about certain aspects of Jewry without Christ, from Bar Kochba to Trotski. And this mistreatment of Christians cannot be truly said to have been a conspiracy blowing up in the face of its perpetrators. Noone was ever confessing "I faked the story of Jesus" and noone was pretending anyone had confessed it. Noone said "if I had known this, I wouldn't have lied about that." Noone looked embarrassed except on occasions like defecting from the faith and offering incense to Caesar's Genius.

Atwill brags about finding "ancient confessions" or "confessions from antiquity", but those are "only very indirect such", inside the Gospels, and only function as such to someone presuming (without evidence) they were written:

  • a) after the Titus event in the Jewish War
  • b) by someone very familiar with not just the Jewish War but also the other details of Titus' life.

Let us look closer at his claims. Now.

I do think there was a conspiracy in Antiquity concerning the active years of Christ. A conspiracy to hush up the Sun that went dark for three hours. A conspiracy to hush up Simon Magus getting beaten in Rome. And that the victory - but at first just survival - of Christianity (meaning its Orthodox form, Roman Catholicism) was when that conspiracy blew up in their faces. What says there was a conspiracy at all?

Well, the missing Roman Contemporary Historians for the years 31 - 90 AD.*

'What seems to have eluded many scholars is that the sequence of events and locations of Jesus ministry are more or less the same as the sequence of events and locations of the military campaign of [Emperor] Titus Flavius as described by Josephus'

Mr Atwill continued: 'This is clear evidence of a deliberately constructed pattern.

'The biography of Jesus is actually constructed, tip to stern, on prior stories, but especially on the biography of a Roman Caesar.' Joseph Atwill

Oh really? But this might be because Jesus Christ was giving a share of His Messianity to the Caesars. When Jews said "we have no King but Caesar", He made sure that Caesar Constantine would recognise Him as Emperor of Heaven. And because they had crucified Him as a blasphemer because He had said He would destroy and in three days again build up "This Temple". Meaning His Blessed Body.

Instead of Gospel Story being by Caesars deliberately constructed as copy of that Roman Caesar, we see the biography of that Roman Caesar as deliberately constructed along the lines of the Gospel story (or some of them, not all since he was a Pagan and in religious error), by God's Providence.

He adds: 'An educated Roman in the ruling class would probably have recognised the literary game being played.'

Atwill maintains he can demonstrate that 'the Roman Caesars left us a kind of puzzle literature that was meant to be solved by future generations, and that the solution to that puzzle is "We invented Jesus Christ and we're proud of it".'

No, his proofs show that God left the Roman Caesars a kind of puzzle to which eventually convert Constantine caught on.

'Although Christianity can be a comfort to some, it can also be very damaging and repressive, an insidious form of mind control that has led to blind acceptance of serfdom, poverty, and war throughout history.

'To this day, especially in the United States, it is used to create support for war in the Middle East.'

Funny then that as a Christian, not lukewarm but dedicated (I defend the Crusades like 1099 taking Jerusalem) I find the recent Wars in the Middle East were NOT conform to Christianity, either in relation of justice or in loyalties of alliance.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Bibliothèque Marguérite Audoux
St Zeno of Verona

PS: Atwill is right there are conspiracies by the powers in place to hijack spirituality or religion of the people against their interests, but these are nowadays usually very clearly AGAINST Christianity, because they are against poor people who are married getting many children, they are against children staying with parents who are poor, they are against people getting married while poor and so on./HGL

American Bible scholar claims ancient 'confessions' prove story of Jesus Christ was entirely fabricated by Roman aristocrats
[That Bible Scholar being Joseph Atwill]
Read more:

Links to another page which says very much the same thing:

Covert Messiah

Which links to Atwill's blog, which also says much the same thing:

Caesar's Messiah / Joseph Atwill's Blog : Religion vs. Spirituality

As I said on the radio show tonight, our spirituality has been hijacked, and a return to a truer spirituality could benefit us at this crucial time in history.

The good old joke (or, for those who do not take it as a joke: the bad old hoax) about Spirituality judging Orthodoxy. Jesus against the Pharisees (a theme he dons't believe happened, of course) was not about Spirituality judging Orthodoxy. It was more about Orthodoxy plus unconventional applications judging a revered Spirituality of Study and Compromise and Humanity which had gone wild, divorced from their God.

Latest Real Jesus Shakes Christianity to Its Very Foundations!
by Mark Shea Sunday, October 13, 2013 11:59 PM
Read more:

* As I previously wrote here:

1st C Historians, Wikipedia Category

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