What Are Pagan Gods, Specifically Greek and Norse and Hindu?

Charlie Kirk got this question, and he gave a brilliant response about how the early Christians turned down the offer to get Jesus into the Roman Pantheon.

I don't know the details about when this offer was made, and it is possible that Charlie overestimated someone else's competence in history, but it is not impossible they got it, it is certain that if they did, they turned it down. And rightly so. Once a certain name is an altar not of the true God, and you are sacrificing there, there are only demons left. Yes, even with persons alive the same time. When Tiberius was alive, people who spoke to him spoke to a man, but people who sacrificed to him or to his genius sacrificed to a demon. Even if it was just one grain of incense.

But when a Pagan thinks of his gods, he will sometimes think of things that aren't as object of his reflection demonic.

So, I'd give five six levels of objects, and note, they are not always distinct in names of gods, remember "Tiberius" can be both a man and a demon, and ... i'm giving one away, straight on spot ... Apollo can be both a man (father of Asklepios), a demon of destruction, Apollyon, and a demon of divination, or a pythonic spirit. Nevertheless, these are distinct things. Just because the pagans confused them as one "divine" person doesn't mean the remote founder of St. Luke's order of physicians, the pythonic spirit that St. Luke's friend St. Paul exorcised and the King of the Bottomless pit are one and the same person. Or one and the same thing.

So, here are the levels, if you ask me.

• partial views on the true God
• partial views on angelic beings, meaning also good angels
• bad guesses about what else there might be there
• human people whom people took to be god for bad reasons
• traits of people or societies
• direct demonic manifestations, like pythonic spirits or supernatural mayhem.

As Christians, we do not believe Roman Mars or Greek Zeus exist. Nor should we. This doesn't mean that Romulus, reputed to be son of Mars didn't exist, or Herakles, reputed to be son of Zeus.

It just means, someone was wrong about Romulus and Herakles and gave them a wrong origin story.

As Christians, we don't believe any demon is omniscient or even aware of the future. How does this relate to demonic oracles, like the Pythia of Delphi?

Reply to Objection 5. The demons know a truth in three ways: first of all by the subtlety of their nature; for although they are darkened by privation of the light of grace, yet they are enlightened by the light of their intellectual nature: secondly, by revelation from the holy angels; for while not agreeing with them in conformity of will, they do agree, nevertheless, by their likeness of intellectual nature, according to which they can accept what is manifested by others: thirdly, they know by long experience; not as deriving it from the senses; but when the similitude of their innate intelligible species is completed in individual things, they know some things as present, which they previously did not know would come to pass, as we said when dealing with the knowledge of the angels (I:57:3 ad 3).

S. Th. I P. Question 64. The punishment of the demons : Article 1. Whether the demons' intellect is darkened by privation of the knowledge of all truth?
https://www.newadvent.org/summa/1064.htm#article1

I answer that, As stated above (II-II:171:1), prophecy denotes knowledge far removed from human knowledge. Now it is evident that an intellect of a higher order can know some things that are far removed from the knowledge of an inferior intellect. Again, above the human intellect there is not only the Divine intellect, but also the intellects of good and bad angels according to the order of nature. Hence the demons, even by their natural knowledge, know certain things remote from men's knowledge, which they can reveal to men: although those things which God alone knows are remote simply and most of all.

Accordingly prophecy, properly and simply, is conveyed by Divine revelations alone; yet the revelation which is made by the demons may be called prophecy in a restricted sense. Wherefore those men to whom something is revealed by the demons are styled in the Scriptures as prophets, not simply, but with an addition, for instance as "false prophets," or "prophets of idols." Hence Augustine says (Gen. ad lit. xii, 19): "When the evil spirit lays hold of a man for such purposes as these," namely visions, "he makes him either devilish, or possessed, or a false prophet."

S. Th. II-II, Question 172. The cause of prophecy: Article 5. Whether any prophecy comes from the demons?
https://www.newadvent.org/summa/3172.htm#article5

The demons can however pretend to know the future in such ways as to provoke the disasters they foresee. This is what I think happened in the case of Oedipus. Because, precisely, Apollo of Delphi, manifesting in the restless trance states of the Pythias, did this kind of manipulation in self fulfilling prophecies. I don't think a false reading of the Apocalypse could do this, because it is not from demons, but from Holy God. Nevertheless, false readings of the Apocalypse can bring about some disasters that are in the true reading, like saying "Antichrist cannot be here yet" can help him to seize power or "the mark of the beast cannot be here yet" can help a code of conduct amounting to this evil to gain such acceptance that those rightly opposing it can neither buy nor sell.

So, I'll give one example of each, from each of the three highly mythological religions I mentioned.

• partial views on the true God
  
  
  • Greek: Josephus says that the earliest worship of Zeus, that of Zeus Ennyalion, was a worship of the true God. Doesn't mean it remained so.
  • Norse: Odin is a false god, but takes on some attributes of the true God, like creating, sending a flood, being a father of all, and with his brothers, being Three in One.
  • Hindu: Of the Hindu "trinity" Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva, it would seem that only the third is diabolic as a concept, while the first two correctly reflect that God pre-existed and created the universe and upholds the universe.
  
  
  
• partial views on angelic beings, meaning also good angels
  
  
  • Greek: Helios, as long as not mixed with Apollo, Selene as long as not mixed with Hecate or Artemis. Hermes seems once to have meant a guardian angel trying to tell a sinner (Aegistus) to repent.
  • Norse: In Norse myth, Sol and Mani are actually not worshipped gods. When the songs about Sigurd and Brunhild say, they worshipped Sol and Mani to get powers of healing and obstretician skill, I suppose this refers in historic fact to invoking the Roman or Greek Apollo and Artemis / Diana, nothing to do with Norse gods. Sigfried / Sigurd and Brunhild had access to remnants of Roman paganism. So, on this level angelology remains angelology.
  • Hindu: Surya and Chandra.
  • In Greek and Hindu, also leave out Sun (and Moon?) having children. That's not partial, but erroneous, as statement about good angels.
  
  
  
• bad guesses about what else there might be there
  
  
  • Greek: Okeanos. Nope, the sea doesn't need one specific spirit.
  • Norse: Jotunheim. Nope, Giants don't survive on an earth disc that's lower than and bigger than our earth disc.
  • Hindu: Rahu. Nope, Solar and Lunar eclipses don't need a third body beyond the Earth (as observing or causing eclipse), but would do so if Earth were a disc.
  
  
  
• human people whom people took to be some kind of god for bad reasons
  
  
  • Greek: Herakles.
  • Roman: Romulus. Venus mater.*
  • Japanese: Amaterasu as ancestor of Jimmu.*
  • Norse: Odin and Yngwe-Frey, when they appeared in Norse lands, founding the Yngling dynasty, may involve Tyr and Thor as well.
  • Hindu: Krishna and Rama.
  
  
  
• traits of people or societies
  
  
  • Greek: Aphrodite (Roman Venus) as goddess of love (may at times have been demons too). Ares (Roman Mars) as god of war.
  • Norse: I don't know an example.
  • Hindu: I don't know an example.
  
  
  
• direct demonic manifestations, like pythonic spirits or supernatural mayhem.
  
  
  • Greek: Apollo of Delphi, Apollo the Plague sender. Helios as father of Aeetes, grandfather of Medea. Hekate, if appearing. Poseidon in the Hippolytus tragedy, possibly Aphrodite in the Hippolytus tragedy.
  • Norse: Odin and Thor appearing to Pagans appealing to them to avoid Christianity.
  • Hindu: Shiva. Is called the Destroyer, and when Arjuna made a deal with him, he became a wonderful warrior, but awful husband.**

When a hero with a human life is said to have a god as a father, it sometimes is a sign of the father being for some reason unknown, or not worth mentioning (Minos being called son of Zeus to the analysis of Leaf simply meant he was a self made man, came much higher in society than his actual father). But sometimes it could mean a demonic entity interfering in the conception (Romulus) or pregnancy (Herakles).

BUT, whichever it is, once someone worships this instead of the true God, they worship the devil or his minions, demons. It's not because Krishna was an actual man that worshipping him becomes a kind of veneration of saints, he is unfortunately worshipped as an actual god and avatar of Vishnu. He is obviously not THE one and only Incarnation of the True God. Therefore, worshipping him as Hindus do is illicit and is demon worship. Though, not as directly, not as intentionally, as if you worshipped Shiva or Apollo or Hecate or ... some Canaanean things I left out of this altogether.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Paris
St. Bridget of Sweden
8.X.2025

23 Jul. Romae natalis sanctae Birgittae Viduae, quae, post multas sanctarum locorum peregrinationes, divino afflata Spiritu, quievit. Ipsius autem festivitas octavo Idus Octobris celebratur.
7 Oct. In Suecia Translatio corporis sanctae Birgittae Viduae.
8 Oct. Sanctae Birgittae Viduae, cujus dies natalis decimo Kalendas Augusti, ac Translatio Nonis Octobris recensetur.

* I consider both Venus Mater and Amaterasu are in history known as Puduhepa. Before becoming a Hittite empress, she was priestess of the Sungoddess of Arinna (confer Amaterasu) whom she identified with the love goddess (Venus mater).
** I haven't read the original Mahabharata in Sanskrit. However a girl who was daughter of an ambassador of India (perhaps to France) made a prose retelling, and she really felt sorry for his wife, poor Draupadi. So do I. I think this took place, not in post-Flood India, but in pre-Flood Nod East of Eden (to which post-Flood India, via Rama / Regma, has a nostalgic attachment.)

Why Is There Hell?

One deconstructor had this idea of the disproportion between the short life we have to make a decision and the hugely long and neverending eternity of ... well, he didn't look on the alternative Heaven, he looked on the alternative Hell. Plus all the reasons we could have for flunking that.

Here was my response:

OK, Heaven and Hell are first and foremost dependent on total firmness of loyalty, to God or to self.

That's why they are eternal, because God is simply rewarding or punishing what will always remain there.

Now, the goal is for all to have this firm loyalty and have it to God. And spend eternity with Him.

If the period of one's trial were extended to an eternity, the eternity of actual Heaven couldn't even begin, because one would have to finish another eternity first and in fact it won't finish.

The idea that people who could get it right should go to heaven, but those who couldn't should get another, another, another trial, would in the end be a coercion to Heaven. So, Heaven would for that reason not be one's loyalty by choice.

The idea that those who fail would be annihilated runs into two problems. No one wants to be annihilated. From the outside, the annihilation might seem merciful, for the one facing it, it wouldn't be. And why would God destroy His creation, but apart of that leave alone the choice of the one disloyal to Him? It makes more sense to punish the choice and leave the existence alone.

So, what about making the person realise he's done wrong? In a paedagogic way? Well, in a paedagogic way, so the chance of change could be extended once more, that would again be coercion to Heaven.

OK, in a non-paedagogic way, then? Exactly what God does. Plus gives some physical pain as distraction from that horror.

I didn't add, but I add now: how about getting to Heaven instead? There is the Blessed Virgin and Her Blessed Son to help on the way.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Paris
Vth Sunday after Pentecost
13.VII.2025

Weaker Vessel and Stronger Vessel

Assorted retorts from yahoo boards and elsewhere: Responding to Nicholas Bowling · somewhere else: Weaker Vessel and Stronger Vessel · Great Bishop of Geneva! Did Jesus Obey Leviticus 20:10?

This is a part of Nicholas Bowling's argument I didn't respond to:

the 15:26 immaculate conception where for Jesus to 15:28 come into the world without sin Mary 15:31 also had to be without sin which I would 15:33 disagree with if he had to be born 15:35 through someone who had never sinned for 15:38 him to be without sin right that would 15:41 mean Mary for her to be without sin she 15:44 would have to be also born through 15:46 someone without sin

Sounds logical, right?

Until you consider that a man is a man and a woman is a woman, as Maria von Trapp said on the Charismatic Conference in Kansas City (my mother loved to quote it).

Part of this is, a man is (usually, and typically, and according to God's general plan, and therefore to be followed in the case of the woman and her seed) the stronger vessel. A woman is (same qualifications) the weaker vessel.

Now, likeness between parents and children produces harmony. Unlikeness instability, disharmony. And harmony in childhood is essential for strength, disharmony produces weakness.

Jesus did not just have to be sinless, He had to be this as an active and a confident male adult. AND as fully human.

Mary grew up with a certain disconnect by being sinless. She was sensitive to sins all around her, she was happily surprised at being sinless. I e, before the angel's greeting puzzled her and the cousin's greeting set her straight, she was anxious she might have committed a sin. Even a slight one would have been a horror to her. While the sin of the first parents was proportionally to their state (and to hers, had she known it) much worse than even mortal sins are in us, in its own kind, it was a very slight one. She hated, just as Adam and Eve should have hated, the sin that was so slight compared to most, but which was damning to them (and would have been damning to her).

This created a weakness, a need to get confidence from others. She could be sinless with this weakness, while having a parent who had had original sin, and most of whom, though not her parents, retained fomes peccati, a surrounding which every day committed venial sins. And she was meant to be weak, even as she is shown in the Apocalypse 12, because she was a woman. God was her strength, everywhere else she looked, she saw a disastrous weakness that could (until Elisabeth explained that Gabriel had told her otherwise) be a trap for her as well.

Jesus was male. That's why we have male only priesthood. He needed to provide strength, in His ministry. Humanly, He only could do that by growing up in perfect harmony with "the parents." At least one of them had to be perfectly sinless. And it couldn't be Joseph, because he wasn't His real father, through the flesh, it had to be the mother, Mary.

There were only two ways in which this could happen.

He could have divine and miraculous force in staying harmonious, obedient to parents, while sinless and neither of them fully so. Or He could have a sinless mother. A fully sinless mother. So that He could have this strength as a sinless person, humanly.

The former option is kind of if not totally negating, at least minimising, the Incarnation. Hence, if He is fully God and also fully Man, He needed to grow up in full harmony with a sinless mother. Mary as being the weaker vessel did not need this harmony in growing up.

A similar reason is also why God couldn't have allowed that Adam be born as a fully human baby to parents of human anatomy but no real human mind. That would have been cruel to the first Adam, and to him before he sinned. I think that should settle the debate that Humani Generis very cautiously allows for, in favour of the traditional doctrine. So also, for the Last Adam, for Jesus. Hence, the sinlessness of Mary.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Paris
VIth Sunday after Easter
1.VI.2025

PS, normally, I would have taken an issue about the differences between Catholic and Protestant onto another blog, but I'm happy for the oversight, since it may help some to grasp how one of their difficulties about the Incarnation is solved.

The other blog is:

Great Bishop of Geneva!
https://greatbishopofgeneva.blogspot.com/

Deaths of Apostles and Deacons — "See Church History"

How many of the very first Christians died as martyrs? The question is asked, including by Sean McDowell, in response to for instance Paulogia claiming only St. Peter and St. James died as martyrs in a way we can document. Let's consult the Roman Martyrology. Yes, I know, the text is basically from 1583, not very old ... I'll return to that, just humour me for now.

Apostles:
24 Februarii / 24 aut 25 in anno Bissextili.		24 February (25th in Leap years)
In Judaea natalis sancti Matthiae Apostoli, qui, post Ascensionem Domini ab Apostolis in Judae proditoris locum sorte electus, pro Evangelii praedicatione martyrium passus est.		In Judaea, the birthday of St. Matthias Apostle, who, after the Ascension of the Lord, elected by the Apostles in place of Judas the traitor by lots, was martyred for the preaching of the Gospel.
29 Junii		29 June
Romae natalis sanctorum Apostolorum Petri et Pauli, qui eodem anno eodemque die passi sunt, sub Nerone Imperatore. Horum prior, in eadem Urbe, capite ad terram verso cruci affixus, et in Vaticano juxta viam Triumphalem sepultus, totius Orbis veneratione celebratur; posterior autem, gladio animadversus, et via Ostiensi sepultus, pari honore habetur.		In Rome, the birthday of the holy Apostles Peter and Paul, who, same year and same day, suffered, under the Emperor Nero. The former of these, in the same City, was fixed to the cross with the head turned towards the earth, and was buried in the Vatican Hill close to the Via Triumphalis, he is celebrated by the veneration of all Earth; but the latter, executed by sword, buried in Via Ostiensi, is held in equal honour.
25 Julii		25 July
Sancti Jacobi Apostoli, qui exstitit beati Joannis Evangelistae frater; et, prope festum Paschae ab Herode Agrippa decollatus, primus ex Apostolis coronam martyrii percepit. Ejus sacra ossa, ab Hierosolymis ad Hispanias hoc die translata, et in ultimis earum finibus apud Gallaeciam recondita, celeberrima illarum gentium veneratione, et frequenti Christianorum concursu, religionis et voti causa illuc adeuntium, pie coluntur.		Saint James Apostle, who was brother of the Blessed John the Gospeller; and, close to the Paschal feat, was decapitated by Herod Agrippa, and first among Apostles received the crown of martyrdom. His holy bones, transferred from Jerusalem to the Spains this day, and buried in the furthest ends of them in Galicia, are venerated piously by the veneration of those peoples, and by the frequent arrival of Christians going there for the cause of religion and of a vows / wish.
24 Augusti		24 August
Sancti Bartholomaei Apostoli, qui Christi Evangelium in India praedicavit; inde in majorem Armeniam profectus, ibi, cum plurimos ad fidem convertisset, vivus a barbaris decoriatus est, atque, Astyagis Regis jussu, capitis decollatione martyrium complevit. Ipsius sacrum corpus, primo ad Liparam insulam, deinde Beneventum, postremo Romam ad Tiberinam translatiun insulam, ibi pia fidelium veneratione honoratur.		Saint Bartholomew Apostle, who preached the Gospel of Christ in India; from there, gotten on his way into larger Armenia, was there, as he had converted very many to the faith, skinned alive, and, on the orders of King Astyages, fulfilled his martyrdom by beheading. His holy body, transferred first to the isle of Lipara, then to Benevent and lastly to the Tiber isle in Rome, is there honoured by the pious veneration of the faithful.
21 Septembris		21 September
In Aethiopia natalis sancti Matthaei, Apostoli et Evangelistae; qui, in ea regione praedicans, martyrium passus est. Hujus Evangelium, Hebraeo sermone conscriptum, ipso Matthaeo revelante, inventum est, una cum corpore beati Barnabae Apostoli, tempore Zenonis Imperatoris.		In Aethiopia, birthday of Saint Matthew, Apostle and Gospeller; who, preaching in this region, suffered martyrdom. His Gospel, written in Hebrew language, by revelation of the same Matthew, was found together with the body of the Blessed Apostle Barnabas, in the time of Emperor Zeno.
28 Octobris		28 October
In Perside natalis beatorum Apostolorum Simonis Chananaei, et Thaddaei, qui et Judas dicitur. Ex ipsis autem Simon in Aegypto, Thaddaeus in Mesopotamia Evangelium praedicavit; deinde, in Persidem simul ingressi, ibi, cum innumeram gentis illius multitudinem Christo subdidissent, martyrium consummarunt.		In Persia, the birthday of the Blessed Apostles Simon the Chanaanean and Thaddeus, who also is called Jude. Of the same however Simon preached the Gospel in Egypt and Thaddeus in Mesopotamia; from there, entering Persia at the same time, after subduing a countless multitude of that people under Christ, they consummated martyrdom.
30 Novembris		30 November
Apud Patras, in Achaja, natalis sancti Andreae Apostoli, qui in Thracia et Scythia sacrum Christi Evangelium praedicavit. Is, ab Aegea[e] Proconsule comprehensus, primum in carcere clausus est, deinde gravissime caesus, ad ultimum suspensus in cruce, in ea populum docens biduo supervixit; et, rogato Domino ne eum sineret de cruce deponi, circumdatus est magno splendore de caelo, et, abscedente postmodum lumine, emisit spiritum.		At Patras, in Achaia, the birthday of Saint Andrew the Apostle, who preached the sacred Gospel of Christ in Thracia and Scythia. He, taken by the Aegean Procunsol, first was locked up in prison, then beaten most grievously, and finally hung on a cross, in this, he tought the people and survived for two days; and having asked the Lord that He not allow him to be taken down from the cross, was surrounded by a huge brightness from heaven, and, when the light then departed, he breathed his last.
21 Decembris		21 December
Calaminae natalis beati Thomae Apostoli, qui Parthis, Medis, Persis et Hyrcanis Evangelium praedicavit; ac demum in Indiam pervenit, ibique, cum eos populos in Christiana religione instituisset, Regis jussu lanceis transfixus occubuit. Ipsius reliquiae primo ad urbem Edessam, in Mesopotamia, deinde Ortonam, apud Frentanos, translatae sunt.		In Calamina (??) the birthday of the blessed Apostle Thomas, who preached the Gospel to the Parths, Medes, Hyrcans, and finally arrived in India, and there, when he had established the peoples in the Christian religion, by order of the king was stabbed by spears and died. His relics were first transferred to the city of Edessa in Mesopotamia (Şanlıurfa is in Shinar!), then to Ortona, to the (Italic people of the Frentani).
Deacons:
9 Aprilis		9 April
Antiochiae sancti Prochori, qui fuit unus de septem primis Diaconis; et, fide ac miraculis clarus, martyrio coronatus est.		In Antioch saint Prochor, who was one of the seven first Deacons; and, bright through faith and miracles, was crowned with martyrdom.
26 Decembris		26 December
Hierosolymis natalis sancti Stephani Protomartyris, qui a Judaeis, non longe post Ascensionem Domini, lapidatus est.		In Jerusalem the birthday of Saint Stephen Protomartyr, who by the Jews, not long after the Ascension of the Lord, was stoned to death.

Φιλολoγικά/Philologica: The Answer I Tried to Add

The Martyrologium Hieronymianum (meaning "martyrology of Jerome") or Martyrologium sancti Hieronymi (meaning "martyrology of Saint Jerome") is an ancient martyrology or list of Christian martyrs in calendar order, one of the most used and influential of the Middle Ages. It is the oldest surviving general or "universal" martyrology, and the precursor of all later Western martyrologies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyrologium_Hieronymianum

Despite its early date, the Martyrology of 411 does not stand at the head of the eastern martyrological tradition. Rather, it is related to the western tradition as represented in the Martyrologium Hieronymianum.[1] It is a translation of a Greek martyrology of about 362, which was also used as a source for the Martyrologium Hieronymianum.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyrology_of_411

Now, the question is, the Greek martyrology "of about 362" ... was it compiled about 362? Or was it updated to about 362, before being used by both St. Jerome and some unspecified actor in the East in 411?

The latter is a very much easier point to prove. And if we don't have the martyrology itself, it means that the dating is based on this type of proof. So, was Book of Foxe written after 1762, because it includes the case of Jean Calas? Or was that particular online edition based on an edition that had been updated to 1762? I think the latter. I also think Jean Calas very likely did kill his son, he was not simply put to death for townspeople considering his son as martyr for Catholicism, he was convicted of actually having killed him. In a court of law. But the point isn't Book of Martyrs being less reliable, the point is, the original edition of the Protestant Martyrology (which it is) was in 1563. About 2 C. prior to the latest update.

We don't know the origin of the Greek partyrology in question. Stephan Borgehammar (in a paper I thought I had commented on in my blog posts, but I apparently hadn't?) considers liturgic development only came to use of martyrologies after Constantine. But perhaps this martyrology "from 362" had been ongoing as a simple collection of (at least supposed) facts, way earlier, in a private collection, not unlike the "place in life" of the site of Carlo Acutis. Only later getting actual Church approval, through St. Jerome and this 411 martyrology.

So, my point about the texts I just cited and made amateur translations of, this is not an ad hoc imposition in 1583, that Roman Martyrology was based on the Late Medieval updates of Usuard, which like most others of the Latin rite, excepting those of orders, namely by Bede, Rhaban Maur, and a few more, was written by a monk of Carolingian times, based on the martyrology of St. Jerome, which itself is best known from Gallican manuscripts. Now, as said, the Martyrology from 362 served St. Jerome.

Actually, the French wiki is better equipped on the matter of martyrologies than then English one. The article on the martyrology of St. Jerome is longer, and we are offered insights about the sources that the English wiki already cited does not give.

À l'origine, selon la reconstitution de Louis Duchesne, il y a la compilation de trois documents antérieurs :		At its origin, according to the reconstruction by Louis Duchesne, there is a compilation of three earlier documents.
1) un martyrologe oriental, spécialement consacré aux martyrs des Églises de l'Empire d'Orient (Illyricum oriental et occidental compris), établi sans doute à Nicomédie vers le milieu du IVe siècle (avec des indications éventuellement ajoutées allant jusqu'au règne de Julien) ;		1) an oriental martyrology, specially consecrated to the martyrs of the Churches of the Eastern Empire (including both Eastern and Western Illyricum), established no doubt in Nicomedia around the middle of the IVth C. (possibly with later added information going on to the reign of Julian);
2) un calendrier liturgique romain, constitué au temps de l'empereur Constantin (et qui a servi aussi pour le Chronographe de 354), avec adjonction de quelques martyrs des églises voisines de Rome ;		2) a Roman litirgic calendar, constituted at the time of Emperor Constantine (and which served also for the Chronograph of 354) with addition of some martyrs from Churches bordering on Rome;
3) un calendrier liturgique de la province d'Afrique, antérieur en tout cas à la persécution d'Hunéric (476 - 484) qui n'est pas prise en compte.		3) a liturgic calendar from the Province of Africa, anterior at the very least to the persecution of Huneric (476 — 484) which is not taken into account.
Le document oriental est extrait en partie des œuvres martyrologiques d'Eusèbe de Césarée, à savoir un gros recueil d'anciens martyria qu'il avait constitué pour les temps d'avant Dioclétien, et son De martyribus Palestinæ (appendice du livre VIII de l'Histoire ecclésiastique) consacré aux victimes de la persécution de Dioclétien en Palestine. Selon Louis Duchesne, on peut déceler la trace d'une origine arienne. Une version syriaque abrégée de ce martyrologe oriental (avec ajout de martyrs de Babylonie et de Perse) a été trouvée dans un manuscrit (Add. 12150) datant de l'an 412 de la Nitrian Collection du British Museum[7].		The oriental document is a partial extract from the martyrological works by Eusebius of Caesarea, that is, from a large collection of old martyrdoms which he had constituted for times prior to Diocletian, and his De martyribus Palestinæ (appendix to book VIII of History of the Church), which is consecrated to the victims of Diocletian in Palestine. According to Louis Duchesne, one can find the trace of an Arian origin. A Syriac and abriged version of this oriental martyrology (with additions for the martyrs of Babylonia and of Persia) has been found in a Manuscript (Add. 12150) dating from the year 412 of the Nitrian Collection of the British Museum.

Let's also check The Chronograph, Chronography, or Calendar of 354.

So, Martyrologies are at least a thing since Constantine. And material for them has been available since at least the time before Diocletian. But in fact, the earliest entries, chronologically of the timeline of the martyrs, must have been taken over from lots of earlier Church historians, like St. Hippolytus. And such would have had privately accessible written accounts as well as accounts publically in the Church accessible orally. Sometimes the older accounts contradict the entries of the martyrology. The origin of "Calamina" is cleared up by St. Hippolytus:

8. And Thomas preached to the Parthians, Medes, Persians, Hyrcanians, Bactrians, and Margians, and was thrust through in the four members of his body with a pine spears at Calamene, the city of India, and was buried there.

But the end of Matthew is seen as peaceful:

7. And Matthew wrote the Gospel in the Hebrew tongue, and published it at Jerusalem, and fell asleep at Hierees, a town of Parthia.

Kudos to Sean McDowell for noting this. What he didn't note is that St. Hippolytus' On the Apostles and Disciples is seen by some as a spurious work, those someones including the New Advent site or its admin.

So, what are the chances that a work centuries after the facts, but tracing more recent facts in a usually accepted as basically factual (according to some perhaps too sensational) way is totally out of touch with what happened? Errors of transmission or of apprehension do occur, and so do lies. But I would say such errors are a thing to be argued on their own merits, not the default until confirmations are found. The opposite approach actually has some merits in history more recent, like since the 12th or 13th C. which saw an explosion in literacy and in the number of documents preserved.

But for ancient history, this is not worse than accepting Alexander was from Greece (larger sense, including Macedon) and conquered Persia, while our sources are centuries later, the oldest of them actually being:

Now it came to pass, after that Alexander the son of Philip the Macedonian, who first reigned in Greece, coming out of the land of Cethim, had overthrown Darius king of the Persians and Medes 2 He fought many battles, and took the strong holds of all, and slew the kings of the earth 3 And he went through even to the ends of the earth, and took the spoils of many nations: and the earth was quiet before him 4 And he gathered a power, and a very strong army: and his heart was exalted and lifted up 5 And he subdued countries of nations, and princes: and they became tributaries to him 6 And after these things, he fell down upon his bed, and knew that he should die 7 And he called his servants the nobles that were brought up with him from his youth: and he divided his kingdom among them, while he was yet alive 8 And Alexander reigned twelve years, and he died 9 And his servants made themselves kings every one in his place 10 And they all put crowns upon themselves after his death, and their sons after them many years, and evils were multiplied in the earth [1 Machabees 1:1-10]

But Alexander died in 323 BC, and First Maccabees was redacted around 100 BC, at the earliest possible 135 BC, since it covers events up to then, so, this source is at least 188 years after the facts. Our most detailed and used source in continuous narrative would be Arrian, a bit older than Appian, see next, born a bit before the Apocalypse, and dead after 145/146 AD, so, perhaps 15 years before Appian.

Or for Hannibal, we have only fragments of Polybius, we rely mainly on Appian, whom I just mentioned, Livy and Cassius Dio. While Hannibal died in 183 BC, Appian was born around the time the Apocalypse was written and died after the birth of Irenaeus, Livy was the earliest of the three, dying in 17 AD, and Cassius Dio was born when Appian had hardly died, and himself died in AD 235. If we go by death years, the least timespan from sources other than Polybius would be to Livy, 200 years, then Appian, 343 years after the fact, and Cassius Dio, 418 years to Cassius Dio.

But we have Polybius, right? Yes, in fragments. And a fragmentary account of above would be there in Acts, which is a First Century source, includes the actual martyrdom of St. Stephen and also the beginnings of St. Paul's martyrdom in Rome.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Paris
Easter Monday
21.IV.2025

See also Feet and Martyrologies — and for Sean McDowell's work, his video on David Wood's channel: Did Jesus’ Apostles Die for Their Faith? (New Historical Evidence)

Matthew 28:11—15

... and this word was spread abroad among the Jews even unto this day.

So, this is obviously not the case if "this day" means 6.II.2025. You'll hear a few things from Jews, but not this one. If St. Matthew spoke the truth, as he did, this was obviously some time ago. I'm OK with that, as I hold to Matthew being the first Gospel. But, was this ever spread among Jews?

The Nazareth Inscription: Rumor and Reaction to the Resurrection of Jesus
APXAIOC Research / Uncategorized / By Archae27
https://apxaioc.com/?p=16

Hat tip to Christians for Truth for the article

Nazareth Decree May Prove That Jews Plotted to Deny the Resurrection of Christ
March 31, 2024 By CFT Team
https://christiansfortruth.com/nazareth-decree-may-prove-that-jews-plotted-to-deny-the-resurrection-of-christ/